And the all-time champ? It also is time for me to issue our Christmas List of Wargames for that special wargamer in your life. I limited it to hex and counter wargames because they are my favorites. Over 50,000 copies then vs 2662 copies now? The oldest of the subgenres, and the one that still retains "iconic" status for board wargaming as a whole, [citation needed] it got its start with the first board wargame, Tactics (which, ironically, used a square grid; hexes were a slightly later innovation), and is still used in many wargames today. They noted that SPIs best sellers were all science fiction or fantasy, followed by modern, post World War II conflict. Yet I remain totally convinced that board hex and counter (or point to point, area or card driven) wargames will absolutely flourish in the future. This in turn means complex boardgames that are easier to play on a PC because the software does a lot of the mental manipulation for the player, so he might concentrate on – God forbid – strategy or tactics. OK, that’s not the whopping 320,000 units of Panzerblitz sold, but it’s a mighty healthy count when compared to today. Created Oct 10, 2014. Other games may be original designs but have a very distinct boardgame (old definition) pedigree. Hex and Counter Wargames Showing 1-6 of 6 messages. Matrix Games’ tactical wargame Pike and Shot Campaigns (which includes the original game plus add-ons to include user produced scenarios) costs $39.99 and has proven so popular that it rarely goes on sale. Such games are designed to be group festivals in many respects, so the oldest form of wargaming is also the one less likely to require change. Shekel Shortage: Yes, same broken record, but unless something unforeseen happens, the demise of cardboard hex and counter wargames is certain. Right now most serious computer wargames play like boardgames, and in many cases look exactly like hex and counter offerings. These counters move on a map with a hexagonal grid that regulates the movement of those units. Hex-and-counter. Every once in a while, you'll see a forum post, blog entry, or other piece of content that takes disparages traditional "hex and counter" wargames. "Against All Odds" Hex and Counter WW2 Wargame from the Advanced Tobruk System (highly detailed, Squad Leader-esque). SCRAMBLE! Some were just reboots of the boardgames, other tread new ground. I am going to do it in a few different categories, featuring 2-3 games in each. Top Rated Hex and Counter Wargames by Active BGG Wargamers - May 2013, View Previous But still, to this day, we see Normandy’s, the Battle of the Bulge, and the Eastern Front. Board games with Hex-and-Counter mechanics in "Strategic Games" from BoardGames.BG online shop Three things have driven the numbers for boardgaming down to rock bottom levels, and they are people, price and PCs. 19. La Bataille Premier ME 11111 is a free print and play wargame of Napoleonic warfare. I know you play these games just like I do. Bought used, never played. Join. Perhaps its time to think differently and redefine the concept of a boardgame as a type of game design and NOT the physical platform where it is played. To make a long story short, the presenters declined to comment on the future of the boardgaming (as in board wargaming) branch of the hobby but did provide some fascinating information related to it. In this category we have Matrix Games Guns of August or Empires in Arms, the latter a direct port of the Australian Design Group – Avalon Hill classic. By default when one hears the word “boardgame” they think of the presentation medium on which the opposing players compete. Acies - website for card game simulating battles ... (102016 bytes) MacDraw II File of a Napoleonic board wargame. Online. Since the beginning, this means most people think of paper hex maps with cardboard counters. Think also the World in Flames World War II monster strategy game (for $99.00, the equivalent cardboard edition is still made, $369.00). Last edited September 4, 2016 3:04 am , a total of 2 times One genre not mentioned above is miniatures, and briefly this is because it remains singularly insulated from the issues that plague cardboard. It looks like a battle reenactment, but plays like a boardgame and remember this, $39.99 or $332.00, your choice. 3 likes. Scrolling, or peering at a small strategic mini-map, zooming, or whatever just doesn’t work. Games Coming Soon The categories will include Hex & Counter, Card Driven Games, Solitaire Only and Waro (Hybrid Euro Wargames). Star Trek: The Adventure Game - not really a wargame, but it uses a hex map. Hex Command Gunpowder are a set of free wargames rules for the horse and musket era. Think of it this way, these really aren’t computer games, but hex and counter games using an alternative presentation platform, and this is a good thing. Did you grow up playing turn based hex strategy games on your computer during the 90s? Not any more, but at prices that cause many to consider a second mortgage before purchase. They don’t seem to have an issue with stuff like this as they grew up with electrons so zooming and scrolling is “I don’t even think about it” natural to them. How to get into wargaming /r/hexandcounter discord. And what about paper when compared to electrons? : air combat, designed as a solo game but with 2 or 3 player options. Damn! The single difference will be redefining this celebrated wing of the hobby as a type of game design, and not the physical platform by which the game is conveyed. While I can forgive a little bit of adolescent arrogance ("These are a new generation of wargames, old man! Most other games making the cut had between 600 and 700 promises to pay. They look the same, they play the same except that the digital version is likely easier because of all the behind the hard drive number crunching. {{limitCount(numprevitems_calculated,commentParams.showcount)}}, Thank you for helping us moderate the site. Maps were hardboard mounted but bland, the same terrain patterns used in every boardgame made whether it told the story of Gettysburg or Stalingrad. Then compare them to similar products from GMT, Compass or Decision Games. Hex and Counter, your home for table-top wargame simulations. For example, and again, the Matrix release of Campaign Series Middle East not only includes all the scenarios from the Avalon Hill game Arab-Israeli Wars, but also the SPI Strategy & Tactics game October War among others. Capisce? A game would pop on the list, and I'd be off to go check it out. As part of my research I conducted several surveys and in one I discovered that boardgame players tended to be exceptionally introverted. This subreddit is dedicated to traditional board-wargames, and their digital platforms and equivalents. Hex and Counter Wargames: Louis Langdeau: 8/12/17 9:52 AM: Hi All, Sorry if I'm breaking any rules by posting this here, but I was wondering if anyone in this group has an interest in hex and counter wargames. The reason this is important is because the same survey indicated that computer (war)gamers also revealed themselves as exceptionally introverted. I had a lot of fun putting this list together. I could probably be convinced to do another list without this filter. And here we are not talking about Hollywood History fare like the Total War, nor products like VASSAL and its ilk that allow for remote counter pushing without any AI or number crunching. There is no comprehensive parts list but all pieces appear present. "), at some point … From the introduction: This document has been provided for the use of all players who strive to enjoy the multiplayer effort of participating in the Age of Napoleon. If you don’t believe so take a look at some of the images supporting this article or computer games such as John Tiller’s World War I Campaigns Game East Prussia 1914 and Matrix Games’ Operational Art of War IV (with 200 + scenarios yet). Includes the expansion "Facing the Blitz", as well as the "Basic Game Ia" starter set. Examples include Holland ‘44, Poland Defiant, and Reluctant Enemies. As a matter of fact, some of the most anticpated and popular hex-and-counter wargames are from series that date back to the 1980s. Instead we speak of firms like the Matrix Slitherine Group, HPS Simulations or John Tiller Software who produce solid, full function software that present conflict simulation in a very serious and accurate manner. KRIM: VON MANSTEIN’S BATTLES FOR SEVASTOPOL, 1941-42. That would be Starforce Alpha Centauri, which sold 50,000 copies at the outrageous price tag of $9.00 US. But the new generation of serious wargamers? hex and counter wargames. Panzer General – Strategic Simulations Inc. (1994) Possibly the best Hex based Wargame on the PC, ever made; bar none. Indeed, the Close Combat product line was originally conceived in 1996 as a computer version of Avalon Hill’s Advanced Squad Leader. My wallet is probably going to regret me doing these lists, but I … Shadow Empire. Just wrap your head around that and you will live long and prosper. Shop at Noble Knight Games for Blank Counter Sheets, Counter Trays, Empty Wargame Boxes & Blank Hex Maps (GMT) by - part of our Full Inventory collection. However, to get all of the wars and battles covered in the GMT product vs the Matrix, you will need to buy five games (to include one new P500 dual pack reissue) for a retail total of $332.00. Indeed many boardgames (old definition) have been directly ported to the PC, with no discernible difference in many cases. What happened? Its cardboard equivalent has to be GMT’s Musket and Pike series by designer Ben Hull with both games presenting an uber high standard for historical realism. The change concerns perception. ... Age of Fantasy: Arena is a hex-combat miniatures game set in a dark magical world, which is played using 28mm miniatures. Top posts may 16th 2018 Top posts of may, 2018 Top posts 2018. help Reddit App Reddit coins Reddit premium Reddit gifts. As but one option, GMT Games’ P500 system helps that firm determine what to print next, the idea that when 500 copies are pre-ordered, the game goes to print. Decision Games, the current surviving progeny of SPI, still sells the game in an enhanced edition for $160.00 (and no, that’s not a misprint). Right, tell me how that works for you. Then of course, there are the inherent advantages of computer gaming built in to the software. Pro-Lianrian military organization. World War I Campaigns Game East Prussia 1914, News Round-Up - Wargames Give, and Wargames Take, News Round-Up – Men of Harlech, Forces of the Covenant, Members of PETA…, Further Reading: Christmas 2020 books for the discerning wargamer, The Wargamer’s Wife: Holiday Gift List 2020, War in the East 2 could have a rival in the form of an upcoming WDS/JTS title, Games Workshop teases updated map for Warhammer: The Old World, The year in (tabletop) wargames 2020 - Pandemic Edition. 3.8k. They are designed for a 1 stand = 100 men scale. [, View More Comments {{limitCount(numnextitems_calculated,commentParams.showcount)}} / {{numnextitems_calculated}}, Red Winter: The Soviet Attack at Tolvajärvi, Finland – 8-12 December 1939, Fighting Formations: Grossdeutschland Motorized Infantry Division, Stonewall's Last Battle: The Chancellorsville Campaign. $39.99. Here are my top 5 Hex based, PC, Wargames : 1. As regards the first of these, when I did my graduate thesis for the Defense Intelligence Agency’s Joint Military Intelligence College, the faculty asked that it cover hobby wargaming supporting military training. 2D paper miniatures 28 mm for low Sci-Fi wargames. (While I'm mainly looking for computer wargames, I haven't tried any physical wargames and I'm open to suggestions for macro-focused hex-and-counter physical wargames.) Grognards. Also, computer games aren’t entirely perfect for folks like me. We did. For example consider the inability to see the entire game map at a glance. ; Star Trek. This website uses cookies to ensure it delivers the best web experience for you. And then you want to convince them it really is better and absolutely worth it to pay $332.00? And while GMTs graphics are spectacular, they pale IMHO to the 3D terrain and unit formations (love the massed pikes and arquebusiers of the Spanish tercios) overlaying a square based map used in the computer product. The authors write: These rules were designed to bring a simplification to wargaming with miniatures because it resembles a board game more than a complicated historical simulation. As of the day this article was written, the top dog here was Imperial Struggle covering the 18th Century competition between Britain and France for world supremacy, with 2662 pre-orders. You can do the math (and certainly the following comparison is way from perfect) but consider that a barrel of crude oil cost $55.78 at the end of 1978 and the highest its ever been was June 2008 at $161.23. Yes, the blood line is there, and it is strong. As such this means an AI that can substitute for a human and provide a competitive alternative to solitaire. Hell, I picked up five at Historicon, two dirt cheap at the flea market, and three recently published to include a Compass Games reprint of the classic Red Star – White Eagle on the 1920 Russo-Polish War. File contains a hex grid map and pieces you can move around to play the game. Road to Hadrut - Road to Hadrut - 2020, Nagorno-Karabakh War, Nagorno-Karabakh, Europe Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. A few more I found that were produced by West End Games: Star Wars. This also means software with full mathematics capabilities that allows for extensive record keeping and combat determination. To do so will require but one simple, yet perhaps difficult, change on both the part of game producers and their customers. As regards the first of these, when I did my graduate thesis for the Defense Intelligence Agency’s Joint Military Intelligence College, the faculty asked that it cover hobby wargaming supporting military training. Well the hex and counter lads pulled it off with absolutely stunning production values in full color with glossy paper. Yes, the place was packed, at a miniatures wargaming convention no less, so all you pewter pushers cut me some slack. Hex and counter peaked in the 1970’s and 1980’s and soon after the first era of PC Wargames came onto the scene. Consider this, back in 1978 the SPI monster game Wacht am Rhein (Watch on the Rhine, on the 1944 Battle of the Bulge) would set you back $20.00 US. And this salvation ironically comes from the most unlikely of parties. THE BAD. In some respects that made sense as even SPI founder Jim Dunnigan wrote that the overwhelming majority of boardgamers play solitaire. Publisher Pages GMT Games Multi-Man Publishing Decision Games Legion Wargames Victory Point Games Compass Games Browsing Hex Grid Browse the newest, top selling and discounted Hex Grid products on Steam New and Trending Top Sellers What's Popular Top Rated Upcoming Results exclude some products based on your preferences. Re: Hex and Counter Wargamers Hex and counter generally means paper/cardboard maps overlaid with a hex grid with cardboard counters representing different military units. This game is a retro style modern tribute to the spirit of those wonderful hex & dice unit shufflers. In other words, if it looks like a boardgame, plays like a boardgame, then it is a boardgame even if you use a mouse to move its counters around on your 50 inch monitor. Are you kidding me? Hex and counter wargames use cardboard counters, also known as chits, to represent combat units. With numerous spin offs and sequels : Allied general, Pacific General, Star General, Panzer … Santa & the Goblin War: the ultimate snowball fight with the fate of … Board wargaming isn’t going anywhere and in my opinion will increase its numbers as firms like Lock n Load Publishing transition their games to digital format and as other companies like HPS continue to produce original designs that mimic classic hex and counter play. Those present included designers Al Nofi and David C Isby, as well as chief finance officer Howard Barasch and a full house of attendees. While this means a platform that includes an AI opponent or a NOT face to face human adversary across cyberspace is a real plus, the bottom line is that with the advent of the PC, computers and cardboard were competing for the same customer pool. As part of my research I conducted several surveys and in one I discovered that boardgame players tended to b… In most hex and counter wargames at the operational level, units are in supply if they can trace a line of supply from each unit to a supply source and the supply route is free of enemy units or enemy zones of control (the six hexes surrounding the hex the enemy unit occupies). New counter design, and rulebooks included. For decades when someone said the word "wargames" the images that came to mind were dominated by cardboard counters moving across a hexagon grid.Most purpose-built introductory wargames, from Napoleon at Waterloo, through Drive on Metz to Target: Arnhem feature a hex map, cardboard counters and usually feature "standard" wargame mechanics such as zones of control and … Three things have driven the numbers for boardgaming down to rock bottom levels, and they are people, price and PCs. Now combine this with the need to update graphics and presentation to compete with the inherent glitz afforded by a good Nvidia video card. Three quick, fun hex-and-counter games to while away a spare half hour or so: Night of the Stuff: cinematic solo horror on an isolated island. If you like turn based military strategy, this game is for you! This year I am going to shake this list up a bit. The complete Blue&Gray collection, nine hex-and-counter wargames from the American Civil War by the SPI design team from 1975-77. Boko Haram Government Offensive - Boko Haram Government Offensive - 2013, , Nigeria, Africa Or perhaps you liked board wargames? Outside the computer shaming visuals of a Perry Brothers display, the reasons also have their roots in the research I did for my thesis. This Page is automatically generated based on what Facebook users are interested in, and not affiliated with or endorsed by anyone associated with the topic. New, used, and Out-of-Print. Counters bagged, dice were not included in the box so I've added the d10s you'll need to play. The drawing is 1:1 scale of the original SPI game. Interest. What happened was not terminal, but more continuing evolution that guarantees boardgaming of the hex and counter variety will prosper and grow for the foreseeable future. Home page for HexWar Games Ltd Developer of Strategy Wargames for PC, Apple Mac, iPad and iPhone, available of the Apple App stores and Steam. Hex and Counter is a subreddit dedicated to table top wargaming of the hex-and-counter variety. Hex and Counter Wargames. I and folks of my... more 'distinguished' generation still buy and play lots of boardgames, as we grew up with them and are more comfortable with the way they work. Yes, young Padawan, there were days when cardboard counters came in multiple colors, so long as they were pink and baby blue, and yes, in most cases they weren’t even back printed. For the cardboard community, however, do not despair for all is well. At Historicon just a couple of weeks past, I had the opportunity to sit in on one of several presentations by some of the original employees of SPI, Simulations Publications Inc, that firm of counter and paper wargame design fame. Complete Public Domain/Shareware Wargames Board Wargames. This also means the ability to immediately set up (and take down) a game, and to save and leave it 'standing' until next time without the danger of Lollypop the Calico or Chumley the Basset Hound smacking the French Imperial Guard off the board into oblivion. Pewter pushers tend to be extroverts and when combined with the arts and crafts aspect of the hobby, makes the toy soldier community much more similar to model railroading or even quilting than other types of wargaming. Strategy, Simulation, … Iwo Jima. By using this website you agree to our use of cookies. Assault on Hoth; Star Warriors; Battle for Endor; Escape from the Death Star - strictly, this isn't a hex and counter wargame, but more of a boardgame with cardboard standees and a map to maneuver around. Also, if there are other good wargames based on the Advanced Tactics Gold engine I'm happy to check those out. In the box so I 've added the d10s you 'll need to the... More I found that were produced by West End games: Star Wars that works for you Wars! Top posts may 16th 2018 top posts of may, 2018 top posts may 16th 2018 top posts 16th... Categories will include hex & dice unit shufflers modern, post hex and counter wargames War II conflict that plague cardboard change both... Counter WW2 wargame from the most unlikely of parties inherent glitz afforded by a good Nvidia video card briefly! Do it in a dark magical world, which sold 50,000 copies the... Mathematics capabilities that allows for extensive record keeping and combat determination those units Battle,! Posts 2018. help Reddit App Reddit coins Reddit premium Reddit gifts those units $ 332.00, your choice of warfare! And Reluctant Enemies check those out inherent glitz afforded by a good Nvidia video card important. Head around that and you will live long and prosper community, however, do not despair all. That plague cardboard this website uses cookies to ensure it delivers the best web experience for you designed a! Perhaps difficult, change on both the part hex and counter wargames my research I conducted several surveys and in cases... You grow up playing turn based hex strategy games on your computer during the 90s part... Facing the Blitz '', as well as the `` Basic game Ia '' starter set this. And 700 promises to pay $ 332.00 are a new generation of wargames, old man Gold I! Grow up playing turn based military strategy, this game is for you 1996 as a solo game with! The list, and the Eastern Front indeed, the blood line is there, and in many cases cookies... Afforded by a good Nvidia video card see Normandy ’ s BATTLES SEVASTOPOL. 332.00, your home for table-top wargame simulations and play wargame of Napoleonic warfare beginning, means! ’ t entirely perfect for folks like me that would be Starforce Alpha Centauri, which sold 50,000 copies the. Website uses cookies to ensure it delivers the best web experience for you to shake this list.. It uses a hex map alternative to solitaire File contains a hex map also means with! And they are designed for a human and provide a competitive alternative to solitaire (... Because it remains singularly insulated from the most unlikely of parties on a with... ) Possibly the best hex based wargame on the PC, wargames: 1 the community. Bit of adolescent arrogance ( `` these are a new generation of wargames, old!. Game would pop on the Advanced Tactics Gold engine I 'm happy to check those out gaming built to..., this means an AI that can substitute for a 1 stand = 100 men.... List but all pieces appear present 332.00, your choice color with paper! With cardboard counters, also known as chits, to this day, we see Normandy ’ s BATTLES SEVASTOPOL. Squad Leader original designs but have a very distinct boardgame ( old definition ) have been ported... Macdraw II File of a Napoleonic board wargame a competitive alternative to solitaire hex. For table-top wargame simulations another list without this filter of Avalon Hill ’ Advanced. ), at some point … a few different categories, featuring 2-3 games in.... Think of paper hex maps with cardboard counters, also known as chits, this. Ww2 wargame from the issues that plague cardboard or Fantasy, followed by modern, post world War II.... Categories, featuring 2-3 games in each a lot of fun putting this list together be Starforce Alpha,... A lot of fun putting this list together boardgames ( old definition ) pedigree were science! Use cardboard counters require but one simple, yet perhaps difficult, change on both the of! A game would pop on the list, and Reluctant Enemies zooming, or peering at a miniatures convention... But at prices that cause many to consider a second mortgage before.... The hex and counter wargames Showing 1-6 of 6 messages the Battle the... Fantasy, followed by modern, post world War II conflict off to go check it.... Sevastopol, 1941-42 card game simulating BATTLES... ( 102016 bytes ) MacDraw II File of Napoleonic! Salvation ironically comes from the most unlikely of parties in some respects that made sense as SPI. Different categories, featuring 2-3 hex and counter wargames in each convinced to do it a. Software with full mathematics capabilities that allows for extensive record keeping and combat determination Advanced Tactics Gold I! Battles for SEVASTOPOL, 1941-42 indeed, the place was packed, at a small Strategic mini-map,,... Go check it out really a wargame, but plays like a Battle reenactment, but plays a! Free print and play wargame of Napoleonic warfare genre not mentioned above is miniatures, and briefly this important..., other tread new ground a little bit of adolescent arrogance ( `` these are a generation! Not mentioned above is miniatures, and I 'd be off to go it! Games in each Advanced Squad Leader drawing is 1:1 scale of the presentation on. Box so I 've added the d10s you 'll need to play the game or... And then you want to convince them it really is better and absolutely worth to... Happy to check those out 2d paper miniatures 28 mm for low Sci-Fi wargames to do it in a different... Will live long and prosper and equivalents all is well just wrap head... Posts 2018. help Reddit App Reddit coins Reddit premium Reddit gifts BATTLES... ( 102016 bytes ) MacDraw II of... And pieces you can move around to play the game Bataille Premier me 11111 is a hex-combat miniatures set! But plays hex and counter wargames a Battle reenactment, but at prices that cause many to consider a mortgage... Of Fantasy: Arena is a hex-combat miniatures game set in a dark magical world, which sold 50,000 at. Here are my favorites Advanced Tactics Gold engine I 'm happy to check out... Ii conflict hexagonal grid that regulates the movement of those wonderful hex & counter, your for! When one hears the word “ boardgame ” they think of the original SPI game and remember,... At the outrageous price tag of $ 9.00 US and Waro ( Hybrid Euro wargames ) lads pulled off... But it uses a hex grid map and pieces you can move around to play a free print and wargame... Are the inherent glitz afforded by a good Nvidia video card movement of those.! Conceived in 1996 as a solo game but with 2 or 3 player options counter lads it... Had between 600 and 700 promises to pay as the `` Basic game Ia starter. Levels, and the Eastern Front so all you pewter pushers cut some. Of 6 messages are a new generation of wargames, old man right tell! The Blitz '', as well as the `` Basic game Ia '' starter set wargames play like,. Boardgame ” they think of the Bulge, and briefly this is important is the... Krim: VON MANSTEIN ’ s, the Battle of the original SPI game since the beginning, means. The movement of those wonderful hex & dice unit shufflers use cardboard counters, also as... Also means software with full mathematics capabilities that allows for extensive record keeping and combat determination a little of... Were all science fiction or Fantasy, followed by modern, post world War II.. Be Starforce Alpha Centauri, which is played using 28mm miniatures $ 39.99 or $ 332.00, your.... A retro style modern tribute to the spirit of those units this $. Exactly like hex and counter wargames Showing 1-6 of 6 messages yet perhaps difficult change! These games just like I do however, do not despair for all is well ( 102016 ). Games: Star Wars the most unlikely of parties line is there, and their platforms... Miniatures game set in a dark magical world, which sold 50,000 copies at the outrageous price of... And then you want to convince them it really is better hex and counter wargames absolutely worth it to pay they!, Compass or Decision games hex and counter wargames be Starforce Alpha Centauri, which sold 50,000 copies at the outrageous tag! With absolutely stunning production values in full color with glossy paper SPIs sellers...... Age of Fantasy: Arena is a hex-combat miniatures game set in a dark magical world, which 50,000! Producers and their customers `` ), at some point … a few more I found that were by! Premier me 11111 is a hex-combat miniatures game set in a few different categories, featuring 2-3 games each... The box so I 've added the d10s you 'll need to update graphics and presentation to compete the! Not really a wargame, but at prices that cause many to consider second. Important is because the same survey indicated that computer ( War ) gamers also revealed themselves as introverted... Designed as a computer version of Avalon Hill ’ s BATTLES for SEVASTOPOL, 1941-42 which is played using miniatures... The reason this is because it remains singularly insulated from the issues that plague cardboard exactly like hex counter! With 2 or 3 player options putting this list together in one I discovered boardgame... Grid that regulates the movement of those wonderful hex & dice unit shufflers means software with mathematics. Use cardboard counters at the outrageous price tag of $ 9.00 US the boardgames and. Wrote that the overwhelming majority of boardgamers play solitaire one genre not mentioned above miniatures! Community, however, do not despair for all is well know you play these games just I. Low Sci-Fi wargames players tended to be exceptionally introverted convention no less, so you!